Dogs and Cats Abused for Their Fur
CNN's Larry King Live (transcript). CNN
December 2005

Aired December 11, 2005
© 2005 Cable News Network LP, LLLP
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

Part 1 of 3

RYAN SEACREST, CNN GUEST HOST: Tonight, dogs and cats. Man's best friends slaughtered in huge numbers, maybe by the millions, for their fur. Imagine, the animals that we love so much as pets beaten, strangled and skinned.

Here to take us inside the shocking story, Lady Heather Mills McCartney, Sir Paul's wife. She's an activist for PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Actor Alec Baldwin, his animal activism earned him PETA's Linda McCartney Memorial Reward this year. Rick Swain, chief investigator for the Humane Society of the U.S. and a former homicide detective. Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich. He helped pass legislation to try to stop this horror. So did Virginia Congressman Jim Moran, a member of the Friends of Animals Caucus.

They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening from Los Angeles. I'm Ryan Seacrest in for Larry King tonight. There is no way to know the exact numbers, but animal rights groups estimate that up to 2 million cats and dogs are slaughtered in China every year for their fur. Undercover video from China and elsewhere in Asia shows dogs and cats being beaten, strangled and skinned.

For the next hour we'll be looking at this issue. What's happening to this dog and cat fur? Where is it being sold and who's buying it?

We have to warn you that some of the video and photos you will see tonight are very, very disturbing. Thank you, panel, for being with us this evening.

Let's start with each of you and your individual roles when it comes to this cause. Heather?

LADY HEATHER MILLS MCCARTNEY, WIFE OF EX-BEATLE: I got a videotape sent to me 11 months ago from Dennis Erdman, who is one of the directors of "Sex in the City." And he had been at our benefit for landmines and said, look, you seem to have made campaigns work. You've got to help us.

And I get asked things every day and the reason landmines works is because I stick specifically to that. But when I watched these images of Alsatian puppies and Golden Retrievers being skinned alive in China for fur to be brought over to Europe, I was just horrified and had to get behind it.

SEACREST: And Alec? How did you get involved?

ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: Well, the specific issue with China, with cat and dog fur importation from China, was something that was mentioned to me by Heather, because I went to the Adopt-a-Minefield benefit. But knowing as I do — because I work with PETA — that the Chinese market is such a significant part of our imports now and they're exporting so much stuff here that exposing the techniques they use, the inhumane techniques that they're using in China to make these fur products for U.S. consumption — and many people don't even know that they're buying cat and dog coats. They're buying a product that they just know in some generic sense — many American consumers simply buy a fur product, unaware of what the source of the material is.

SEACREST: How shocked were you when you first saw some of this video and started to learn about it?

BALDWIN: Unfortunately, I wasn't shocked at all because I had worked with PETA on other hidden video. And my hat goes off to those that obtained the hidden video here because it's a very dangerous process. I've worked with other organizations like the Performing Animal Welfare Society, Pat Derby (ph) and Ed Stewart (ph) would go — Ed would go get hidden video of abuse of circus animals and so forth and it's very risky.

The people that are doing this will always claim that there's some economic determination for what they're doing. You can get into a lot of trouble if they catch you with a hidden camera. But I wasn't surprised at all because I had narrated the "Meet Your Meat" videotape for PETA, which of course had a lot of hidden video of cattle ranching and chicken farming and so forth.

SEACREST: Congressman Kucinich, you have been instrumental with this legislation. How did you first get involved and what's your role?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH, (D) OH: The weatherman at Channel 8 in Cleveland, Dick Goddard, had a tremendous movement started in Cleveland which focused on the Humane Society's 18-month investigation. And when I saw those films, it broke my heart. I mean, you see what's happening to poor and defenseless animals and you want to do something about it. So with the help from Dick and others from Channel 8, what we did was to come together — we had a big campaign. And thousands of people in Cleveland became involved and it resulted in the support that led me to ask Congress to get included in a trade bill the dog fur — a bill that would restrict the use of dog and cat fur — actually ban it in the United States.

And we got that passed with the help of Jim Moran, Congressman Crane at the time. And that happened five years ago.

So you can make a difference by being involved which I think is the message from this panel.

SEACREST: We're going to talk more about that journey and what happened five years ago. Right now I want to show you some videotape that was given to us by PETA which really hits home how awful this story is. We understand it was shot this summer at a marketplace in southern China.

Before we show it, again, I want to warn you that it is very, very disturbing. Heather, I think you're familiar with this video. Why don't you tell us about it as we roll this? Take a look.

MCCARTNEY: Well, you're going to just be horrified by watching it. It's totally barbaric. I mean they crush the dogs and cats into what are virtually barbed-wire cages, and they put 20 to 30 all crushed together and just throw them — look at them, they're throwing them off a truck 20 or 30 feet. And there's no reason for that at all. It's totally inhumane. And they pick them up by the neck with tongs to move them from one case to the other and just throw them in. And you see the dogs aren't even violent. They're just poking and prodding the dogs as we speak.

And the pussy cats are licking each other. They actually lick each others wounds. They don't even claw each other. If you were in that situation, you'd be clawing your way to get out and they're just licking each other because they're so shocked and they're watching around them, what's going to happen. They're going to be skinned alive. And there's just no reason for it.

SEACREST: Your husband had a very profound reaction once he saw this video. Tell me about what Sir Paul said after he learned what was going on?

MCCARTNEY: Well, he said that no way will we ever go to China, will he perform there, and the fact that they keep denying it's going on.

SEACREST: Was he performing there?

MCCARTNEY: No, but he had planned to go and do a world tour but he wouldn't go to anywhere where they — China do a lot of inhumane things, sadly, and I can't even believe we're trading them until they treat their animals and their citizens as expected with countries that where trading with so — he didn't want to go there.

SEACREST: Let's go to Washington. Rick Swain from the Humane Society. Tell us about your role in this.

RICK SWAIN, HUMANE SOCIETY: I was one of the principal investigators of the Humane Society of the United States. We partnered with Manfred Kerman (ph) in Germany, who's an independent journalist, and conducted the original investigation into the use of dog and cat fur, finding it, of course, in China and then finding it in the marketplace in the United States and still finding it throughout the world.

SEACREST: And this investigation in 1998, what did you witness firsthand, Rick?

SWAIN: Well, to start with, I didn't believe it. I didn't believe that it was even remotely possible that this many dogs and cats could be slaughtered as inhumanely as they were for their fur and each step of the investigation I just was surprised. I said to them this isn't possible but of course you see the physical evidence, the graphic evidence. You see them in a warehouse piled to the ceiling the size of a football field filled with dog fur being the butcher shop in the village that's supplying the tannery with dog and cat fur and you realize it is true and it's just beyond comprehension.

SEACREST: It really is. It's just unbelievable.

Congressman Moran, also in Washington. How did you get involved?

REP. JIM MORAN, (D) VA: Well, it — I'm not as disciplined or determined as my friend and colleague...

SEACREST: As our good friend here.

MORAN: Well, yeah. I admire Dennis. I'm just kind of a poor slob trying to keep his conscience alive.

But I do know that man's inhumanity to mankind generally begins with the way in which individuals and societies treat animals. Cruelty to asnimals invariably leads to cruelty to other humans, and this is a horrific case. We can stop this, because China and the individual companies that engage in trade of dog and cat fur don't make that much money. If we threaten them with economic sanctions then they're going to stop it. That legislation that was passed in 2000 by President Clinton, and gave the Humane Society the ability to prosecute, has in fact substantially reduced the use of dog and cat fur in the United States.

When Rick did his investigation, even in National Airport, the nation's capital, they found that about 35 percent of the products that they picked off the shelf that had fur, when they did a forensic analysis, it turned out to be dog and cat fur.

Well, when we told companies and they realized what the repercussions would be, they immediately stopped. And so I don't think there is a whole lot of it deliberately going on. I suspect, though, that firms that import from China regularly may have some, but I don't think it's deliberate.

But here the United Kingdom doesn't even have a ban. I would think that they would be ahead of us in something like this.

SEACREST: We had asked the Chinese embassy in the U.S. to provide either someone for an on camera interview or a statement for tonight's show. They gave us the following statement, which is headed "Fur industry in China on humane track."

It reads, "Animal protection and animal welfare is by no means exclusive to the western countries — the idea has long been existed (sic) in traditional Chinese culture. The idea of benevolence held by the Confucianism or the tradition of protecting living things in Buddhism shows the Chinese people's concerns about animals. The case of dogs and cats being brutally killed is individual action of some farmers who simply did not have the knowledge base to properly slaughter animals. The case does not reverse the fact that the Chinese people, like the American people, love animals. China's fur industry is generally on the right track. The Chinese government attaches great importance to strengthening, adopting international standards for the fur industry. We sincerely hope to strengthen exchanges and cooperation with the international community to promote the improvement of better protection and welfare of animals."

That is what they had to say. We're going to take a break, come back, and you can respond right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SEACREST: Welcome back. I'm Ryan Seacrest in for Larry King tonight. We're talking about the horrific abuse of dogs and cats for the sake of their fur.

Having heard the statement from the Chinese government. What do you have to say about it?

MCCARTNEY: Now they're actually admitting that farmers do slaughter animals by skinning them alive. Why don't they make a law that they don't do it? Because that's the only way they know how to do it. Why can't you just cut an animals throat which is horrific to anything (ph) but to actually just skin it alive and leave it to die for 20 minutes? It's sick.

SWAIN: Heather is absolutely correct. For the first time that I've heard them they're actually admitting it. What's really ludicrous about that statement, there is — we spent months and hours and hours and weeks undercover corresponding with these people, making up fake names for dog and cat fur. They're very much aware of the sensitivity of western countries and European countries.

SEACREST: What do you mean, making fake names?

SWAIN: They call them fantasy names.

SEACREST: Fantasy names for an actual dog?

SWAIN: No, for dog or cat fur, so they can trade it without western countries or European countries being aware of what it is they're trading in.

SEACREST: Congressman Kucinich?

KUCINICH: If you take the Chinese officials at their word this is an important moment. They are for animal rights and they say so in the context of celebrating Buddhism. That would be a moment that the Dalai Lama would applaud. I would add though, that if they are real about this they should submit to voluntary curbs on the export of dog and cat fur from their country and they should also permit open inspection.

We should be able to go. If this group wanted to go, Ryan, all of us, we should be able to go to China and look at those places where wew know this is happening.

SEACREST: What would happen if you wanted to go right now? KUCINICH: Well, you know, based on this. I'm going to send a letter to the Chinese embassy, saying this the direction they want to go, it's a new era in animal rights, then why don't you invite the Humane Society, PETA and others to come and inspect, and then we'll see.

MCCARTNEY: That's a good idea.

BALDWIN: Another thing that I think is important, just from my own experience, is that I hope that HSUS, I hope the Humane Society and so forth can get this footage that Swain obtained on a Web site that people can go to and they can view it over and over again ...

MCCARTNEY: It's on my PETA. We've got it on PETA.

BALDWIN: It's on PETA's Web site ...

MCCARTNEY: And the Humane Society.

BALDWIN: And HSUS. Because the great thing about people who are inclined in this country to care about these things. They don't need anybody to tell them what's on that tape. You see that tape and you see that's abuse of animals and the tape speaks volumes about the issue.

SEACREST: We have some more of that tape to show you now. This was shot a few years back, actually. It captures the awful brutality of this story. It's far too disturbing to show it in its entirety but Rick Swain has seen it and can tell us more again, it's difficult to look at. Let's roll that tape now and Rick tell us about what we're looking at here.

SWAIN: OK, Ryan. What you're seeing is a dog, obviously an Alsatian or a German shepherd being tied to a fence prior to being slaughtered for its fur. The method they use is designed to do as little damage to the fur as possible because — it's economics, that's what it's about. What you just about saw was the man was going to slash the inside of the thigh of the dog and let it bleed out and actually skin it while it's still alive, at least appears to be still alive.

And again, that's because they want to protect and preserve their fur. If they did in fact do what Heather suggested and slash the throat, they wouldn't do that because economically that wouldn't make sense to them. That would damage their fur and that's not what they're about.

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